in between - Father & personal - Episode 6

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back to In Between. We are so excited to have you here. I have my friend Kaleina here. Not. Unfortunately, she is not in the room with me. So thanks to technology, we get to have her remotely. So, Kaleina, hi. Thank you for coming. Kind of thank you for having me. I wish you would have came to Wyoming, but this will work. I know. So this season, if you've been following along, this is actually our last episode of the summer series that we're doing. We've been talking about the attributes of God. We've been talking a lot about what we know about God and what we truly believe about God. And today, I think this is such a great. A great way to end this little series, because it is about how God is our Father and how he is personal and to each of us. And when I was praying about this specific episode, I really felt like Kalena kept coming to my heart. So I asked her if she would do it, and she said yes. And so thank you for that. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Hey, thanks for thinking of me. [00:01:11] Speaker A: So when I asked you, Kaleina, to be on the podcast and to talk about God as a father and how he's personal to each of us, was that, like, intimidating for you, or were you like, yeah, this. I know him that way? [00:01:26] Speaker B: I think it was a little bit of both, for sure. I definitely have grown much closer to the Lord in the last several years of my life, coming to know him more as a father, more as a friend, in more of an intimate way. However, I also recognize that this is a huge subject, and, like, this topic is big and kind of scary for a lot of people. And so I do also recognize that. [00:01:51] Speaker A: Part of it, and we'll talk more about it later. But that is why I think that God kept bringing you to mind for me, because I've watched you. We've been close friends for a lot of years now, and I've gotten to watch your relationship with him change. But first of all. Okay, sorry I strayed from the questions. Literally, first thing. So, first of all, how about you introduce yourself? Tell us about you. [00:02:15] Speaker B: So, my name is Kalena. I just turned 21. Next. This coming school year, I'll be a senior at Oklahoma Wesleyan University, which is kind of so crazy to say, because, you know, high school, Kalena would have never believed I'd be a senior in college by now. I know. It is so crazy. People keep reminding me, and I'm like, it doesn't even feel real. But I'm very excited to be at this point. I'm a Graphic design major with a business communications minor. So I have no clue what the Lord has in store for my future yet when it comes to a career or living space. But, um, I would definitely love to be doing something creative and something for his glory, obviously. I also lead worship at okwu, which I have loved doing. I love using my gifts and my talents to serve the Lord and to serve the people around me. And my parents are pastors. We just moved almost exactly a year ago to Spokane Valley, Washington, to plant everyone church up here. And that has been one of the most crazy and challenging and exciting and fruitful experiences of my life and of our family's journey together in ministry. So, yeah, that's a little bit about me, for sure. [00:03:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And getting to watch you grow from high school Kaleina to senior Kalena has been so cool because I have seen God grow you in just amazing ways. And a lot of times they were in very uncomfortable situations for you. And then I get to see, like, the fruit of that, though, and just kind of have a fruit row seat. So I'm very grateful for that. I want to ask you if you think that there's a misconception within, like, part of the church that God is personal to each of us, that he is a father, a friend. Like, I think that sometimes this is my take on it. Sometimes we can know a lot about God and we cannot know God. And so I wanted to hear what your take was on that. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I have actually had several conversations with friends at school about this idea recently of knowing about God but not knowing Him. And I also, I would agree there is a almost epidemic of that, that we just want to gain and gain and gain knowledge and understand and wisdom without ever really sitting down and having an intimate relationship with the Lord, which I think should be the foundation of our knowledge, like our faith and our reliance and our intimacy with the Lord should be the basis off of which our wisdom comes. You know, knowing him and knowing who he is comes from knowing him and knowing who he is. You know, like, we have to know him in order to know Him. So I think a lot of times it's easy for Christians to kind of see God as a distant, faraway person, you know, and to kind of portray him as this, like, deity in the sky and someone who rules over the world but does not come and interact with it ever. And I think that is so false because, you know, of the ways that I've experienced Him, the ways that he revealed himself to people in the Bible and in present day, you know, he constantly reveals himself to us. And so I just think that is such a great way to remember, like, his personal relationship that he has with us is just. He makes himself known. He wants to be known in that way. [00:06:05] Speaker A: And you're so right. In Scripture, there's so many places where he reveals himself. And that, like, that is a great place to start for, for sure, and to go back to. Because scripture is truth. It's living. It's, it's. It's the basis of it. But we can get to a place where we're, like, just listening to podcasts, just reading all these different books, and we can get to a place where it's like, I just want to know about him and not actually know him. And when you said that he wants to reveal himself to us, I think that's so, so true. And I listened to a podcast, um, about a year ago. It was on Jenny Allen's podcast, and she talked about in Afghanistan, I want to say I think it was Afghanistan, maybe not, but somewhere in the Middle east, where God was showing up to people in dreams and saying, like, go to this place at this time, and there would be a group of them that had this dream, and then they would worship God. And prior to that, they had not even known about Him. And so then they have to start these secret underground churches because it's actually not allowed to worship God there. Like, you will die for worshiping God, but they know him so well because he revealed Himself to them that they're willing to die for Him. And then that's where I'm like, we're not. We. We hear. I don't. We don't have that faith. We don't have that. I will literally die to worship this God that I know and that I love. And I want us to get there, you know. [00:07:37] Speaker B: So, yes, for sure. [00:07:39] Speaker A: Why do you tell me a little bit about your journey? I guess, like, how has he shown himself to be personal to you? [00:07:47] Speaker B: So I obviously have been a pastor's kid since I was born, so I was born and raised in the church. I would say at this point, probably at least 50% of my life has been inside of a church building, just serving, setting up, tearing down, you know, leading worship work days, all that sort of a thing. So I have always known who God was. I've always had a relationship with him since I was little. But I would say probably my sophomore year of college was when my personal, intimate relationship with the Lord really took off. To make a long story short, I went through a very Tough season of life. In my first semester of sophomore year at Oakwood, I ended up losing almost all of my friendships just because of adversity against me and my family and people spreading lies and rumors about me around our campus. I. I lost most of my friendships. I only have probably two or three friends that stuck with me through that, through that season. But in the midst of it, I grew desperate for the Lord in a way I've never experienced before. I just was so desperate for him and to feel his presence and to feel his patience and his graciousness and his love. Because I knew from like my raised, from being raised in church, I knew that he was there for me and that he desired to know me. And so because of that experience, I really did gain a better understanding of who he is and the closeness that he desires to have with us. And I developed a really strong intimate bond with the Lord because I sought him, because I got that desperate feeling for him. Rather than turning away from him and saying, you know, like, you took everything from me. What? Like I don't want to be around you anymore. You know, I. I found him on my knees in my dorm room in tears, late at night, you know, just calling out to him and asking him to meet me where I was. And he did. And I am forever grateful for that part of my testim testimony. You know, I. Through all of that and through just the desperate seeking of his face, I am now able to hear his voice, which is something I never would have expected. I never imagined I would be at this space now where I am with the Lord, you know, because I. Like I said, I always knew who he was. I always knew Jesus, I always knew I had him with me. But I just am so, so grateful for the trials that I went through, you know, like, you know my story through that, you've seen how it has become such a fruit bearing situation in my life. In the time when I was going through that season, I remember telling my mom, like, I never want to do this again. I never want anyone to have to experience this pain. I never want to do this again. Like, I just can't wait to be on the other side of this. And I would say, probably last semester at college, so almost a year since then, I remember praying the one night and I texted my mom and I said, I think I would do it all again if I had to, to get to where I am with the Lord. Like I. I would do it again. I would go through the pain and the grief and the loss. And that's Kind of been this the case since then. You know, I've gone through more struggles. I've lost more relationships. I've been asked by the Lord to surrender relationships and things like that. And every time it's been painful and it's been hard. And there's no doubt about that, like, losing people is hard. Change is hard. Surrender is really hard. But I have just gained more and more intimacy and more and more fondness of the Lord through being obedient to him and through hearing his voice, that I would continue to do it and I'll continue to, to be obedient and to listen because he's my heavenly Father and He knows what's best for me. [00:12:01] Speaker A: And you've grown to trust him through it all because you've seen, sustain you, carry you when you didn't want to keep going and just show up like, yeah, the perfect Father. Right. So how Let me think. So I remember that there was a time when you asked me this was you were in high school probably, and you said, like, how do you hear God? And I was. And, and like in that is a whole other subject. There are many different ways you can hear God. But for me, I, I, I just can feel it in my spirit and, and usually it aligns with scripture and I just kind of know things. Like, I just feel like I know what he's wanting me to do. It's different than my own voice in my head. And it comes from spending time with Him. And also I got into a season two where I was just desperate for him and I sat and I listened for him and then I, I kind of got to know his voice better and better. So I guess I want to ask you, which I know the answer, but I want you to tell everyone. So you at that point were like, I don't hear God. I don't know how to hear God. I know he's real. I know he loves me. But you hear him now is what I want to ask, right? Yes. And so do you think it came from that seeking and did you stop to listen to maybe or just tell me about that? [00:13:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the pattern I've noticed in when, from the first time I can remember hearing God and then the times when his voice has felt louder is when I don't have other voices competing in my mind. So in that season when I lost so many friendships, I didn't have the opinions of other people kind of almost competing against the voice of the Lord in my mind. And it happened again when he asked me to surrender a relationship I was in almost immediately following that surrender, that breakup, the Lord's voice was like booming in my mind. And it was because I wasn't seeking that other person's voice over the voice of the Lord. And, you know, you say you can kind of feel it in your spirit. You sense it, you know it. I feel kind of the same way, but it is. I don't want to say it's an audible voice because I don't hear it, but I hear it in my mind. Like, I know often comes when I'm praying or reading scripture, I always write it down, and I always write it in all capital letters because that's how it appears in my brain that, like, there's no questioning. It is the booming voice of God. And the way that I can usually decipher whether it is, you know, my own thoughts or whether it is the Lord speaking, obviously whether or not it aligns with scripture. And also, he often speaks in contradiction to what I would naturally think. So, like, my natural. Me too, my natural flesh thinking is always different than what the Lord says. And so that's often a way I can decide too, where he's like, move, go talk to that person. And I'm like, ooh, I really don't wanna do that. [00:15:09] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. Yes. One time, Stephen and I were in Walmart, and I'm not. I've never considered myself a very good evangelist. Like, personally, one on one, I like doing podcasts, I like speaking to groups. But, like, I don't go up to people in Walmart. And I'm like, have you heard about Jesus Christ? Like, I just. That makes me so uncomfortable. And this, this person came up to Stephen and was like, steven, Steven. Hi. Steven did not recognize him. And apparently they had worked together years prior, but he looked completely different. So Steven didn't recognize him, but he was like, oh, hey, buddy, you know, how you doing? And this whole time this guy is talking to Steven, all I can hear in my mind is, you have to pray for him. And I'm fighting it. I'm like, right now it's like, pray for him. And I'm like, how about I pray for him when I get home? Like, I'll be like, hey, what's your name? I'm gonna pray for you later. And I'm fight this voice in my mind. And the guy walks away. And then it's louder and it's like, you need to go and find him and pray for him. Oh. So here I am running through Walmart. Literally, I was like, stephen, I have to go pray for him. I really actually don't want to, like, in my own flesh, but I have to. I don't know why. And so I ran through Walmart, and I also don't know if this happens to you, which, you know me, I am not a crier person. I don't like crying, especially in public places. But when the Holy Spirit is very, very strong, I can't help but cry. And so I find this guy, and I have no idea if he's, like, an atheist. I have no idea if I don't know what he. I have nothing. I'm just like, hi, I'm Brooklyn. I'm Stephen's wife. And then I start crying. God told me that I have to come and pray for you. And even then I'm like, so what do you need prayed for? Like, I'll pray for you. And God's like, nope, now. And so I was like, actually, I have to pray for you right now. But he kept saying, he's like, there's nothing. I don't need anything prayed for. And he's. And then I was like, okay, but are you sure? Because in my head, it kept being like, ask again. And I'm like, I am the most annoying person. God, like, just let me walk away. And finally he. He was like, okay, just life. And then I hear ask again. And I'm like, okay, but what about life? Then it was like, ask again. And finally he's like, he broke down, and he's like, There was like, he had just gotten a divorce. His relationship with his children were awful, and he just, like, shared all this stuff with me, and I got this overwhelming sense. He's like. I was like, well, God wants you to know that he's chasing you. And that's why he made me chase you through Walmart, because I'm not comfortable with that. But he's chasing you, and he loves you, and, like, let me pray for you. And I put my arm on him and we both just cried. And Walmart. But it kind of. That's. That story always reminds me of, like, that's such a good example of, like, that's not what I would do if it was my choice. Like, it's like, you're contradicting and. And sometimes you do fight it. But like you said, when you're obedient, you hear it even louder, too. And so after that, I felt like it was just crazy, and that day was crazy. But I totally agree with you that once you're obedient and once you Continue to follow Him. It. You hear it more often, or at least that's how it's been for my experience and people that I've talked with. But so you said when you are. When you. You feel like you hear it more, when voices are not competing, do you find that if you are in busy situations or say you do have a lot of friends around or something, is that when you just spend time alone with the Lord, then, like now you've made it a priority to do that? [00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:07] Speaker A: Talk a little bit about that. [00:19:10] Speaker B: I think the quiet place is so important, you know, and it's something that I still am totally imperfect at. You know, I struggle to meet with the Lord on a daily basis. It's something that is constantly a new goal of mine, you know, to just be better about it. But I mean, the Lord doesn't expect our perfection and he knows that we're gonna be unfaithful at times, and that's why he is as faithful as he is. But I definitely value the quiet place and the intimate space where I can go to meet with my father. And at school, I've found that it's usually on the floor of my bedroom, which is kind of funny. But I set up my pillows behind my back and I sit on the floor with my prayer journal and my Bible and I just wait and I listen. I often will just flip to a place where I had previously been reading in my Bible and just try to go through slowly and meditate on the words and ask him to teach me something that I hadn't been taught through that scripture before. Or I'll try and pick out phrases or words that don't make sense to me and I'll ask Him to give me a better understanding of it, you know, and what he has for. For us humans now to learn about this scripture and just some of the things that I've learned about some of the most well known scripture passages or, you know, things that I thought I had figured out in the Bible. And he's just like revealed new things to me. So as you said at the beginning, Jesus is alive in Scripture and the word of God is alive and breathing. And we can see that at work in our lives. And I think it is just a testament to scripture being alive and that we can read and reread and reread and reread and constantly learn something new. And Jesus will constantly reveal something new to us. And so I have just loved being able to do that. And, you know, sometimes I don't even open my Bible Sometimes I just sit and I pray. And I have one journal that I am almost finished with that is only for prayer and only for conversations with the Lord. And I will write down what I'm grateful for. I will write down praises. I will write down, you know, any thought in my mind, quite frankly, anything I'm struggling with friendship, problems, drama, things like that. Things that I am like, no person needs to hear all of this, but the Lord can. And the Lord will happily receive all of it with open arms. And I just take it all to him. And I just allow my cup to be filled. I allow him to speak to me. I allow him to just change my heart. I ask him, you know, as often as I remember and as often as I can to renew my mind and my heart, to be more like him and to. I've started a new prayer, which is something that is in scripture and something that we should all be praying, I think, more and more. And I pray it over people, too. I pray, you know, search me, oh, Lord, and point out anything in me that offends you. And I've started praying that. And the Lord convicts when you pray that sort of prayer. [00:22:21] Speaker A: You know, I think that prayer. I think that that specific prayer is one that is so scary to pray unless you have an intimate, fatherly, friendly relationship with God. Because if you view him as this judge that is going to strike you down or cause calamity when you make him mad, then you don't want to pray that because you're like, I don't even want to go there with you. But, you know, I want my friends to come to me and be like, hey, I noticed this about you, and I don't think it's healthy, like, what's going on, you know, and, like, hold me accountable to things. I want my community to do that. And so when you view God as your friend and your father and somebody that just loves you and wants the best for you, it's a lot easier to pray that prayer, don't you think? Because I remember being so intimidated by that. I'm like, I know there's a lot wrong, so don't overwhelm me with it. [00:23:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:26] Speaker A: Which he does it. He brings things, like, one at a time to me at least, which is loving as well. [00:23:32] Speaker B: But, yeah. Yes. It's such a humbling prayer, too, to say, like, point out anything in me that offends you, you know, and to sit and, like, wait and to not shy away from what his answer is going to be, too, you know, because you can pray that prayer and then live in total ignorance of what ye or, you know, like, nah, that's not a problem. I know what's right, you know, but it's that coming from that place of humility and something that I think has really benefited my relationship with the Lord, My personal relationship with the Lord is looking back on the times that I've heard him speak, or looking back on the conversations I've had. I, I read through that prayer journal every now and then, which is where I also kind of keep a log of what he says to me so that I don't forget it. And, and I just remember the one day this last semester reading through it and reading through all of the times when I was like, God, I don't know what to do. I feel entirely helpless. I feel entirely lost. I feel like a total screw up. You know, the times when I just brought him my most raw self and, you know, asking him to make me better, to make me more like him. And he has always met me with the most gentle and sweetest voice and the most gentle and sweetest words I could have ever imagined. You know, like, and that's the thing. Like, if you expect him to be a judge, I mean, you might think that and you might get that, but that's not who he is. Like, he is a just judge, but he is also our gentle Father and our loving friend. [00:25:13] Speaker A: And John Mark Homer wrote that his baseline that, yes, God is just, he is justice oriented, he does get angry, but his baseline is mercy and compassion and love. Unfailing love, actually. And he does have that. And if you're seeking him, that's what he wants. So he's going to give it to you. Right? I think a lot of people. [00:25:39] Speaker B: I think that's another way we can help decipher the Lord's voice in our minds too. Because there's been times when I felt conviction for something and then started to beat myself up over it and been like, now why would you ever do that? Why would you ever think that? And in those moments, I take those thoughts captive and I'm like, but this is not the way that my heavenly Father thinks of me and speaks to me. You know, like, I've been able to shut down the lies and be like, but I know my Father's voice is gentle and he is merciful and gracious, and he does not blame me, he does not condemn me, but he does convict. [00:26:16] Speaker A: And he turns you back to him, but out of love, right? [00:26:21] Speaker B: In a loving way. And so I think that's another Thing too is like the voice of the Lord is not unkind. You know, like he may be strict, but he's not unkind. [00:26:33] Speaker A: Even his strictness or his like some people call them rules, they're out of love. It's because he wants what's best for us. Right. What's hard, I think for so many. And honestly, if you've ever talked about this subject before, I'm sure any listeners heard this. But we relate him to earthly parents or earthly leaders or earthly people of authority. And that is so inaccurate. There can be great things from our parents that we learn that he is like. And I'm very aware of that when I talk to Quinn, like mostly Quinn. I have three kids, as you know, but Quinn is the one that we are learning the most right now. And I always tell her I'm like, I am not perfect though. Like everything I do is not going to be the best choice. Even though that is my heart for you. It's not always, but Jesus is like, he will be perfect for you. He can always fill in where I do not measure up. So please do not look to me for that. Like, I love you so much, but look to God. And I think that I wanted to teach her that because that was a really hard lesson for me to learn. And I think it's hard for a lot of people when we equate him to our humanness. [00:27:46] Speaker B: Yeah, that was something. [00:27:48] Speaker A: So I want to ask you. Oh, sorry, go on. I keep. We do this in person too. Keep going. [00:27:54] Speaker B: No, you're fine. That was something else that I had thought of too in just kind of praying and thinking about this topic of his fatherliness is that it is so easy for us in our flesh nature to portray our human parents attributes onto God. And you know, if your earthly father is harsh and judgmental and mean, it's easy to believe that that's how God is because you know, we hear he's our Father and so you think, oh well, if my father's like this, then that means God the Father is like this. Or if your earthly father was distant and non existent and you know, aloof like it's easy to believe that that is how the earth your heavenly father is going to be too. But like you said, it's. That's so backwards. And as earthly parents were supposed to take on the characters and the characteristics and attributes of the heavenly father for our kids. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Right, exactly. So I think there's a lot of people probably, and I was one at one point that hold God and others at an Arm's distance. Like, it's scary to be vulnerable. It's scary to let them in. And so I just want to know, for closing thoughts, what would you say to somebody that this idea of him being this loving, gentle father with a personal, intimate relationship with you, what would you say to the people that. That is just foreign to that they're like, how. What do you even do with that? That's a hard question. [00:29:31] Speaker B: But, yeah, that is a really good question. I think, first and foremost, just there is absolutely nothing sweeter than. Than knowing and loving Jesus. Like, it almost brings me to tears just thinking about it. Like, when you get desperate to know the Lord, you will find that you only grow more and more desperate. And I was praying about this actually in the shower yesterday, and he kind of brought this image of thirst to my mind. And do you know, on days when you drink more water, you tend to feel thirstier throughout the day? I've noticed that before. Maybe that's. [00:30:13] Speaker A: No, I do, too. Yeah. [00:30:14] Speaker B: But on days when I. Right. On days when I drink more, I find myself thirstier throughout the day. And I think that that's just the same with Jesus. You know, the more desperate we are for him, the more we seek him, the more we turn our eyes upon him, the more we're gonna be desperate for him, the more we're going to want to seek him, the more we want that intimacy with Him. And it makes me think of the story of the woman at the well when Jesus meets her and he says, if I gave you the water that I have, you would never thirst again. And I think that's just such a beautiful image of, we are so thirsty, but we go searching for the wrong water to quench 100%. And if only we would turn to the living water, we would never be thirsty again. So I definitely think that. [00:31:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And I learned. I don't even know where now, but that thirst is, like, the strongest human desire. Like, so we can be hungry, but actually thirst outweighs that. And so I thought it was interesting that he uses those terms, but you're so right. And. And that has been my experience. The more that I'm in the Bible consistently, the more I'm like, oh, I want to go back, because I am learning new things. God is speaking to me. The more I pray, the more that I sit with him, the more I want to. When I go through, like, dry spells where, like, it's just hard to do it. And, you know, life, sometimes, kids, whatever, not sleeping keeps you from it. He meets you in those spaces, too. And I want to say that, but I know, like, then it's. It's like, when I go back to it, it's kind of hard, like, at first, but then I. Once I do it, I'm like, oh, my gosh. I needed this. I needed to keep coming to you. I want to. I just want to do this all day long, like. And he does meet us in the spaces when, you know, as a new mom or super busy college kid, that you can't. He does meet us, but I totally agree. It's like, the more you do it, the more you want to. And. Yeah. So I guess our word would just be to, like, encourage you to start. To. Whoever's listening, to start just being with him and try to be consistent, because the longer in between, I feel like it's harder. If you're consistent with it, though, you will notice a difference, change, and you will start hearing him. And that is, like. Like you said, it's just the sweetest relationship. You just don't want to. You don't want to be without it anymore. You just want to grow with him. Yeah. Any. Any last thoughts that you'd like to share? [00:32:56] Speaker B: I mean, I like how you said that he meets us in those spaces. I think that's one of the things that continues to come to my mind throughout my walk of faith and that I constantly remind people of, is that how far you've drifted or no matter how unworthy you feel, the Lord will meet you right where you're at. He will come to your level. He will make himself known to you. You know, we just have to be desperate for him. And I think that desperation doesn't always have to come from a place of, like, immense suffering. You know, like, you can be on the mountaintop and be desperate for the Lord. So I think that's another thing I would say is to just be desperate to know him because he's desperate to have that intimate relationship. [00:33:39] Speaker A: 100. That's so good. Well, thank you so much, Kalena. We will have to do one in person sometime, because I miss you. Yes, please. Okay. Thank you.